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	<title>Comments on: Mele Part II</title>
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	<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/</link>
	<description>Musings on Science, Religion and Philosophy</description>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-232</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 16:27:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/#comment-232</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the argument that chance is metaphysically impossible is too plausible though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the argument that chance is metaphysically impossible is too plausible though.</p>
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		<title>By: Tanasije Gjorgoski</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-231</link>
		<dc:creator>Tanasije Gjorgoski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 15:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Or one may argue that the chance explanation is not metaphysically possible, on the base of PSR or something similar. I guess, pragmatist won&#039;t have anything against dismissing of explanations if they are logically or metaphysically impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or one may argue that the chance explanation is not metaphysically possible, on the base of PSR or something similar. I guess, pragmatist won&#8217;t have anything against dismissing of explanations if they are logically or metaphysically impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/#comment-225</guid>
		<description>Yeah - I actually put a comment after yours mentioning that.

I&#039;m still too minds about this. And clearly am still thinking through all this.  On the one hand clearly someone can argue for a difference in relation.  Yet what practical difference is there?  At best perhaps we can splice the kinds of differences ala Scotus.  

The argument a free proponent can make is that the the objective probabilities are different.  So that while in one case one can&#039;t determine a difference over time the implications are quite different.  But while that might resolve the &quot;does it make a difference&quot; charge I&#039;m not sure it resolves the argument from luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah &#8211; I actually put a comment after yours mentioning that.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still too minds about this. And clearly am still thinking through all this.  On the one hand clearly someone can argue for a difference in relation.  Yet what practical difference is there?  At best perhaps we can splice the kinds of differences ala Scotus.  </p>
<p>The argument a free proponent can make is that the the objective probabilities are different.  So that while in one case one can&#8217;t determine a difference over time the implications are quite different.  But while that might resolve the &#8220;does it make a difference&#8221; charge I&#8217;m not sure it resolves the argument from luck.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Dorfman</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-224</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Dorfman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 06:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/#comment-224</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Clark:&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;If all those things are had what distinguishes the universes where the choice was made via luck from the universes with an agent libertarian freely willed choice? 

Nothing. &lt;/i&gt;

I seem to remember making a similar point just a couple weeks ago, and you weren&#039;t buying.  Do you find it more convincing now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Clark:</b> <i>If all those things are had what distinguishes the universes where the choice was made via luck from the universes with an agent libertarian freely willed choice? </p>
<p>Nothing. </i></p>
<p>I seem to remember making a similar point just a couple weeks ago, and you weren&#8217;t buying.  Do you find it more convincing now?</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-203</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/#comment-203</guid>
		<description>BTW - for those interested there was a &lt;a href=&quot;http://gfp.typepad.com/the_garden_of_forking_pat/2006/09/al_meles_paper_.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;discussion of some of Mele&#039;s ideas&lt;/a&gt; a year and a half ago at Garden of Forking Paths.  Mele&#039;s book wasn&#039;t out yet then but some of the issues are discussed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW &#8211; for those interested there was a <a href="http://gfp.typepad.com/the_garden_of_forking_pat/2006/09/al_meles_paper_.html" rel="nofollow">discussion of some of Mele&#8217;s ideas</a> a year and a half ago at Garden of Forking Paths.  Mele&#8217;s book wasn&#8217;t out yet then but some of the issues are discussed.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-201</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/#comment-201</guid>
		<description>The issue of sufficient reason gets a tad complex.  Leibniz&#039; principle is, &quot;everything that is, has a sufficient reason for being and being as it is, and not otherwise.&quot;  The problem is that this doesn&#039;t, on the face of it, appear reconcilable with any kind of indeterminism.  Certainly not randomness.  However I think at least some agent libertarians would argue that there is a sufficient reason for why we have one choice and not an other and that is the free choice of the agent.  Whether that works or not is an other matter - basically the problem Mele is raising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue of sufficient reason gets a tad complex.  Leibniz&#8217; principle is, &#8220;everything that is, has a sufficient reason for being and being as it is, and not otherwise.&#8221;  The problem is that this doesn&#8217;t, on the face of it, appear reconcilable with any kind of indeterminism.  Certainly not randomness.  However I think at least some agent libertarians would argue that there is a sufficient reason for why we have one choice and not an other and that is the free choice of the agent.  Whether that works or not is an other matter &#8211; basically the problem Mele is raising.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-199</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Peirce has a weird view on freedom.  It&#039;s basically an Epicurean position where there are &#039;swerves&#039; that might be called random but Peirce seems to consider free.  I&#039;m not sure that&#039;s sufficient for an agent libertarian free will proponent.  But I confess it&#039;s just an area of Peirce I&#039;ve not paid much attention to.  Likewise Peirce&#039;s view of consciousness is a tad weird.  It&#039;s akin to Leibniz&#039; monads &lt;i&gt;except&lt;/i&gt; that to be conscious is the &#039;inside&#039; view from one of these swerves.  That is from the outside it seems like freedom and from the inside it&#039;s a moment of consciousness.  

This did end up being influential and I suspect contributed to the American process thinkers. But it&#039;s so odd and has basically no argument behind it that I tend to just brush it over.  I think it ends up being akin more to an event libertarian free will position ala Kane.  Probably you&#039;re not familiar with that position.  It&#039;s actually the position I&#039;m most sympathetic to but it has pretty serious problems.  

Maybe I&#039;ll do a writeup on event libertarianism later today so as to clarify exactly what it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peirce has a weird view on freedom.  It&#8217;s basically an Epicurean position where there are &#8217;swerves&#8217; that might be called random but Peirce seems to consider free.  I&#8217;m not sure that&#8217;s sufficient for an agent libertarian free will proponent.  But I confess it&#8217;s just an area of Peirce I&#8217;ve not paid much attention to.  Likewise Peirce&#8217;s view of consciousness is a tad weird.  It&#8217;s akin to Leibniz&#8217; monads <i>except</i> that to be conscious is the &#8216;inside&#8217; view from one of these swerves.  That is from the outside it seems like freedom and from the inside it&#8217;s a moment of consciousness.  </p>
<p>This did end up being influential and I suspect contributed to the American process thinkers. But it&#8217;s so odd and has basically no argument behind it that I tend to just brush it over.  I think it ends up being akin more to an event libertarian free will position ala Kane.  Probably you&#8217;re not familiar with that position.  It&#8217;s actually the position I&#8217;m most sympathetic to but it has pretty serious problems.  </p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;ll do a writeup on event libertarianism later today so as to clarify exactly what it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Tanasije Gjorgoski</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-196</link>
		<dc:creator>Tanasije Gjorgoski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/04/02/mele-part-ii/#comment-196</guid>
		<description>Hi Clark,

First let me say that I know nothing about this topic...

So two questions...

Is principle of sufficient reason (PSR) is compatible with libratarian free will. Because buying PSR would eliminate possibility that the difference between two worlds is based on luck.
But on other side, I guess, that would mean that there will have to be reasons for the free will choice.

And the second one is, would Mele (but also I&#039;m interested about you personally and Peirce for that matter) accept a metaphysical argument (as PSR) which would serve to eliminate luck as possibility?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Clark,</p>
<p>First let me say that I know nothing about this topic&#8230;</p>
<p>So two questions&#8230;</p>
<p>Is principle of sufficient reason (PSR) is compatible with libratarian free will. Because buying PSR would eliminate possibility that the difference between two worlds is based on luck.<br />
But on other side, I guess, that would mean that there will have to be reasons for the free will choice.</p>
<p>And the second one is, would Mele (but also I&#8217;m interested about you personally and Peirce for that matter) accept a metaphysical argument (as PSR) which would serve to eliminate luck as possibility?</p>
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