<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: An Other Meta-Coherence Problem</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/06/24/an-other-meta-coherence-problem/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/06/24/an-other-meta-coherence-problem/</link>
	<description>Musings on Science, Religion and Philosophy</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:22:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/06/24/an-other-meta-coherence-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-803</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=381#comment-803</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://geniusnz.blogspot.com/2008/06/meta-coherence.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Someone else seems sympathetic&lt;/a&gt; to my view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://geniusnz.blogspot.com/2008/06/meta-coherence.html" rel="nofollow">Someone else seems sympathetic</a> to my view.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/06/24/an-other-meta-coherence-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-800</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=381#comment-800</guid>
		<description>Well the problem with ludicrousness is that end ends up being a &lt;i&gt;reductio ad absurdum&lt;/i&gt; but often such reductions depend upon an intuition.  Since I&#039;m such a critic of appeals to intuitions I recognize that this is ultimately weak.  It ends up being that since I can&#039;t handle the implication the premise is wrong.  However when the implication is so bad I think this still is somewhat defensible.  (If it implies I shouldn&#039;t believe much of anything)

Your point about distinguishing between usefulness and truth is a good one.  I&#039;ll have to think through that.  Normally I&#039;m skeptical about that move but I can see how it would work here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the problem with ludicrousness is that end ends up being a <i>reductio ad absurdum</i> but often such reductions depend upon an intuition.  Since I&#8217;m such a critic of appeals to intuitions I recognize that this is ultimately weak.  It ends up being that since I can&#8217;t handle the implication the premise is wrong.  However when the implication is so bad I think this still is somewhat defensible.  (If it implies I shouldn&#8217;t believe much of anything)</p>
<p>Your point about distinguishing between usefulness and truth is a good one.  I&#8217;ll have to think through that.  Normally I&#8217;m skeptical about that move but I can see how it would work here.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: GNZ</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/06/24/an-other-meta-coherence-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-799</link>
		<dc:creator>GNZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=381#comment-799</guid>
		<description>Re the 9:08 post
As opposed to a straight appeal to lack of ludicrousness (to me arguments of that form seem to be lacking something important) maybe what we are saying is that we care about something along the lines of &#039;usefulness&#039; and that usefulness might contradict truth seeking.

Or the stronger statement that it matters instrumentally in terms of truth seeking in that one might be more able to achieve truth if one doesn&#039;t get to hung up on religiously enforcing the requirement to hold the beliefs in abeyance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re the 9:08 post<br />
As opposed to a straight appeal to lack of ludicrousness (to me arguments of that form seem to be lacking something important) maybe what we are saying is that we care about something along the lines of &#8216;usefulness&#8217; and that usefulness might contradict truth seeking.</p>
<p>Or the stronger statement that it matters instrumentally in terms of truth seeking in that one might be more able to achieve truth if one doesn&#8217;t get to hung up on religiously enforcing the requirement to hold the beliefs in abeyance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/06/24/an-other-meta-coherence-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-797</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=381#comment-797</guid>
		<description>Ah, OK.  If we&#039;re not talking about an individual&#039;s justification but some ideal agent then we&#039;re largely talking apples and oranges.  That clarifies things considerably then.  I&#039;d probably set my sights on the very notion of an &quot;ideally rational agent&quot; and the problems inherent there.  But I&#039;ll not bore you with that tangent.  I tend to find the epistemology of the individual rather than some ideal individual or community more interesting.  The latter I find useful only for certain normative conditions.  (Such as making sense out of what truth entails)

The point about supporting evidence is somewhat but not essentially key.  As to 2 + 2 = 4 that&#039;s probablematic since the way most people in practice approach mathematics is much more as a normative practice.  That is 2 + 2 = 4 is true &lt;i&gt;as a normative practice&lt;/i&gt;.  

If we move to formal mathematics it gets trickier not the least of which is precisely because of the foundational philosophical questions.  Which to me really gets interesting since one could take the positions of the formalists, the intuitionists, the constructivists, and platonists and ask if we can convincingly decide among them in terms of what an ideal rational agent ought believe.  I&#039;d say an ideal rational agent can&#039;t decide which seems to entail that only the narrowest set of mathematical claims are really knowable.  (i.e. no infinities either potential or actual in proofs)

Yet I think many people would find such a conclusion disturbing.

As to me &lt;i&gt;as a person&lt;/i&gt; I have good evidence for 2 + 2 = 4 but that&#039;s because I&#039;ve actually read Whitehead and Russell and know where to look up their book.  (&lt;i&gt;grin&lt;/i&gt;)

My ultimate point though is actually similar to what you end with.  The strength of my belief is itself evidence for its justification.  Not quite what you are saying but fairly close.  (While I&#039;m loath to say too much what Davidson would say, this appears to be a position he&#039;d come close to as well)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, OK.  If we&#8217;re not talking about an individual&#8217;s justification but some ideal agent then we&#8217;re largely talking apples and oranges.  That clarifies things considerably then.  I&#8217;d probably set my sights on the very notion of an &#8220;ideally rational agent&#8221; and the problems inherent there.  But I&#8217;ll not bore you with that tangent.  I tend to find the epistemology of the individual rather than some ideal individual or community more interesting.  The latter I find useful only for certain normative conditions.  (Such as making sense out of what truth entails)</p>
<p>The point about supporting evidence is somewhat but not essentially key.  As to 2 + 2 = 4 that&#8217;s probablematic since the way most people in practice approach mathematics is much more as a normative practice.  That is 2 + 2 = 4 is true <i>as a normative practice</i>.  </p>
<p>If we move to formal mathematics it gets trickier not the least of which is precisely because of the foundational philosophical questions.  Which to me really gets interesting since one could take the positions of the formalists, the intuitionists, the constructivists, and platonists and ask if we can convincingly decide among them in terms of what an ideal rational agent ought believe.  I&#8217;d say an ideal rational agent can&#8217;t decide which seems to entail that only the narrowest set of mathematical claims are really knowable.  (i.e. no infinities either potential or actual in proofs)</p>
<p>Yet I think many people would find such a conclusion disturbing.</p>
<p>As to me <i>as a person</i> I have good evidence for 2 + 2 = 4 but that&#8217;s because I&#8217;ve actually read Whitehead and Russell and know where to look up their book.  (<i>grin</i>)</p>
<p>My ultimate point though is actually similar to what you end with.  The strength of my belief is itself evidence for its justification.  Not quite what you are saying but fairly close.  (While I&#8217;m loath to say too much what Davidson would say, this appears to be a position he&#8217;d come close to as well)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/06/24/an-other-meta-coherence-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-795</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=381#comment-795</guid>
		<description>I meant to be working with an impartial notion of epistemic reasons, which is largely independent of any individual&#039;s psychology. (What an ideally rational agent would be believe, say.)

Responding to your former comment: I take it (1) is clearly false (at least if you replace &#039;arguments&#039; with &#039;beliefs&#039;). Some fundamental views are more justified than others: induction is more reasonable than counterinduction, modus ponens is better than affirming the consequent, etc.

(Whether &lt;i&gt;your&lt;/i&gt; fundamental beliefs are justified depends on what they are. Either they&#039;re justified, or they&#039;re not. You ought to believe whichever is the case.)

P.S. You seem to be assuming that you need to &lt;i&gt;possess supporting evidence&lt;/i&gt; in order for a belief to be justified. I wouldn&#039;t say that, at least if you have a narrow notion of evidence. (Do you have evidence that 2+2=4? But good reason to believe it, surely.) I&#039;m just saying that if you believe there&#039;s a cup in front of you, you can&#039;t also think that this belief is no more likely true than its negation. (And you&#039;d also better believe its preconditions.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant to be working with an impartial notion of epistemic reasons, which is largely independent of any individual&#8217;s psychology. (What an ideally rational agent would be believe, say.)</p>
<p>Responding to your former comment: I take it (1) is clearly false (at least if you replace &#8216;arguments&#8217; with &#8216;beliefs&#8217;). Some fundamental views are more justified than others: induction is more reasonable than counterinduction, modus ponens is better than affirming the consequent, etc.</p>
<p>(Whether <i>your</i> fundamental beliefs are justified depends on what they are. Either they&#8217;re justified, or they&#8217;re not. You ought to believe whichever is the case.)</p>
<p>P.S. You seem to be assuming that you need to <i>possess supporting evidence</i> in order for a belief to be justified. I wouldn&#8217;t say that, at least if you have a narrow notion of evidence. (Do you have evidence that 2+2=4? But good reason to believe it, surely.) I&#8217;m just saying that if you believe there&#8217;s a cup in front of you, you can&#8217;t also think that this belief is no more likely true than its negation. (And you&#8217;d also better believe its preconditions.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/06/24/an-other-meta-coherence-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-794</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:12:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=381#comment-794</guid>
		<description>I suppose an other way of framing this (dang I hate that term - now even I&#039;m using it) is to ask whether I can 

1. believe X
2. believe I have insufficient justification for X to know X
3. actually have sufficient justification to know X

I think your rejoinder only works if those are all compatible.

I&#039;d say that the disbelief that some set of evidence E constitutes sufficient justification entails that for the agent it doesn&#039;t justify.  That&#039;s because what counts isn&#039;t just evidence but how it is put together.  (Here I&#039;m obviously distinguishing between evidence as facts and evidence as argument with the facts)  

Consider the student who knows calculus, who knows how to interpret the question I give them on the exam, but who is unable to get the proper answer even though the answer is given as part of the question. (Fairly common in my physics exams)  Now we don&#039;t what to say they are epistemically superior to someone who claims they&#039;ve got the argument successfully but don&#039;t really.

But that&#039;s exactly the case we have in my example.  

Once you accept that then I think the absurdity of the implications demonstrates why your assumption is wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose an other way of framing this (dang I hate that term &#8211; now even I&#8217;m using it) is to ask whether I can </p>
<p>1. believe X<br />
2. believe I have insufficient justification for X to know X<br />
3. actually have sufficient justification to know X</p>
<p>I think your rejoinder only works if those are all compatible.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say that the disbelief that some set of evidence E constitutes sufficient justification entails that for the agent it doesn&#8217;t justify.  That&#8217;s because what counts isn&#8217;t just evidence but how it is put together.  (Here I&#8217;m obviously distinguishing between evidence as facts and evidence as argument with the facts)  </p>
<p>Consider the student who knows calculus, who knows how to interpret the question I give them on the exam, but who is unable to get the proper answer even though the answer is given as part of the question. (Fairly common in my physics exams)  Now we don&#8217;t what to say they are epistemically superior to someone who claims they&#8217;ve got the argument successfully but don&#8217;t really.</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s exactly the case we have in my example.  </p>
<p>Once you accept that then I think the absurdity of the implications demonstrates why your assumption is wrong.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/06/24/an-other-meta-coherence-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-791</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=381#comment-791</guid>
		<description>Richard, I think you miss my argument.

1. On fundamental issues I don&#039;t think arguments are justified.  
2. You say I &lt;i&gt;should not believe&lt;/i&gt; when I don&#039;t have sufficient justification.
3. Therefore I should not believe any of the fundamental issues in philosophy.
4. Fundamental issues in philosophy determine higher order justification.
5. Therefore I shouldn&#039;t believe higher order beliefs.  (Such as whether there is a cup in front of me)
6. Therefore your reasoning leads to pyrrhonic disbelief.
7. (6) is ludicrous therefore I call (2) into question

You say appreciating the contradiction should change my mind.  But I&#039;m not sure where it should change it.  Should it make me believe that I &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; have more evidence for my fundamental beliefs than I do?  But that seems ludicrous.  I should believe I know when I don&#039;t simply because I don&#039;t want to say I don&#039;t know on an other?  Isn&#039;t the more reasonable belief simply that the implication from disbelief to disbelief is wrong?

As to the volition issue.  The problem is that while we are reasons responsive (and I&#039;ve never denied that) it doesn&#039;t appear we are purely reasons responsive.  To simply say you expect we&#039;d believe what is obviously true and disbelief what is obviously false misses the point that we don&#039;t have control on this matter.  Thus in more boundary cases I am also unable to control belief.  One could say I &lt;i&gt;ought&lt;/i&gt; believe but if I can&#039;t control this then I&#039;m not sure what the point is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, I think you miss my argument.</p>
<p>1. On fundamental issues I don&#8217;t think arguments are justified.<br />
2. You say I <i>should not believe</i> when I don&#8217;t have sufficient justification.<br />
3. Therefore I should not believe any of the fundamental issues in philosophy.<br />
4. Fundamental issues in philosophy determine higher order justification.<br />
5. Therefore I shouldn&#8217;t believe higher order beliefs.  (Such as whether there is a cup in front of me)<br />
6. Therefore your reasoning leads to pyrrhonic disbelief.<br />
7. (6) is ludicrous therefore I call (2) into question</p>
<p>You say appreciating the contradiction should change my mind.  But I&#8217;m not sure where it should change it.  Should it make me believe that I <i>do</i> have more evidence for my fundamental beliefs than I do?  But that seems ludicrous.  I should believe I know when I don&#8217;t simply because I don&#8217;t want to say I don&#8217;t know on an other?  Isn&#8217;t the more reasonable belief simply that the implication from disbelief to disbelief is wrong?</p>
<p>As to the volition issue.  The problem is that while we are reasons responsive (and I&#8217;ve never denied that) it doesn&#8217;t appear we are purely reasons responsive.  To simply say you expect we&#8217;d believe what is obviously true and disbelief what is obviously false misses the point that we don&#8217;t have control on this matter.  Thus in more boundary cases I am also unable to control belief.  One could say I <i>ought</i> believe but if I can&#8217;t control this then I&#8217;m not sure what the point is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/06/24/an-other-meta-coherence-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-790</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=381#comment-790</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not seeing how your objections relate to my view. I haven&#039;t made any positive claims about epistemic justification. Just plug in your favourite theory there. (As a placeholder: you should believe whatever you in fact have most reason to believe. If you really are epistemically superior, you should believe that, and if not, you should go the &#039;humble&#039; route and give up your baseless/unjustified beliefs. But again, this is platitudinous.) I&#039;m merely insisting on a &lt;i&gt;constraint&lt;/i&gt; of rational belief. Just like you shouldn&#039;t believe contradictions, nor should you have meta-inconsistent beliefs (e.g. believing P whilst also judging this belief probably false, or at least no more likely true than false).

What does volitionism have to do with reasons?  I agree we can&#039;t believe at will something which is obviously false (e.g. that the sky is green). That&#039;s precisely what you&#039;d expect from a reasons-responsive agent. The force of your will is not a reason, so your beliefs &lt;i&gt;shouldn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; be responsive to it.

Anyway, I&#039;m not requesting that you form a firmer conviction &lt;i&gt;by force of will&lt;/i&gt;. I&#039;m just pointing out the inconsistency in your beliefs. Appreciating the contradiction should be enough to change your mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not seeing how your objections relate to my view. I haven&#8217;t made any positive claims about epistemic justification. Just plug in your favourite theory there. (As a placeholder: you should believe whatever you in fact have most reason to believe. If you really are epistemically superior, you should believe that, and if not, you should go the &#8216;humble&#8217; route and give up your baseless/unjustified beliefs. But again, this is platitudinous.) I&#8217;m merely insisting on a <i>constraint</i> of rational belief. Just like you shouldn&#8217;t believe contradictions, nor should you have meta-inconsistent beliefs (e.g. believing P whilst also judging this belief probably false, or at least no more likely true than false).</p>
<p>What does volitionism have to do with reasons?  I agree we can&#8217;t believe at will something which is obviously false (e.g. that the sky is green). That&#8217;s precisely what you&#8217;d expect from a reasons-responsive agent. The force of your will is not a reason, so your beliefs <i>shouldn&#8217;t</i> be responsive to it.</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;m not requesting that you form a firmer conviction <i>by force of will</i>. I&#8217;m just pointing out the inconsistency in your beliefs. Appreciating the contradiction should be enough to change your mind.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
