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	<title>Comments on: Intuitionist Mathematics and Physics</title>
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	<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/09/05/intuitionist-mathematics-and-physics/</link>
	<description>Musings on Science, Religion and Philosophy</description>
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		<title>By: Jon Awbrey</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/09/05/intuitionist-mathematics-and-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-1674</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Awbrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=576#comment-1674</guid>
		<description>Here’s a perspective on Peirce’s Law as it appears in a version of Peirce’s own logical graphs:

http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/PeircesLaw.html

Jon Awbrey</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here’s a perspective on Peirce’s Law as it appears in a version of Peirce’s own logical graphs:</p>
<p><a href="http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/PeircesLaw.html" rel="nofollow">http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/PeircesLaw.html</a></p>
<p>Jon Awbrey</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/09/05/intuitionist-mathematics-and-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-1529</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 20:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=576#comment-1529</guid>
		<description>I think Peirce ends up with those things.  As I said I&#039;m way out of practice on formal logic - so excuse egregious errors on my part.  And I don&#039;t have time to look it up.  But I seem to recall him dealing with those (which would have been key given his trichotomy of categories).

But I&#039;m just not familiar enough with the papers to say much without getting back up to speed sadly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Peirce ends up with those things.  As I said I&#8217;m way out of practice on formal logic &#8211; so excuse egregious errors on my part.  And I don&#8217;t have time to look it up.  But I seem to recall him dealing with those (which would have been key given his trichotomy of categories).</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m just not familiar enough with the papers to say much without getting back up to speed sadly.</p>
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		<title>By: Confutus</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/09/05/intuitionist-mathematics-and-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-1519</link>
		<dc:creator>Confutus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=576#comment-1519</guid>
		<description>I suppose I&#039;m equally limited by the fact that I&#039;ve never studied Peirce. Although I do note that the some of the ideas Peirce pursued as indicated in the SEP article are significantly simiilar bar operator is the same as Lukaseiwicz&#039;s negation, and his Z operator is the same as Lukasiewicz&#039;s &#039;and&#039; The most important weakness I see in Peirce&#039;s 3 valued logic is that he didn&#039;t have a good conditional for purposes of implication, inference, and deduction.

   Lukasiewicz used an unfamiliar prefix notation, one that is good for some technical reasons, but not easily read, written, or understood. He did trouble to invent a conditonal, which *almost* works, but doesn&#039;t quite. 

   I prefer the notation and some of the concepts of C. I Lewis, who attempted to make a comparison with his modal logic and that of Lukasiewicz, but wound up rejecting it, partly because of the inferior conditional, and partly because he, like the intuitionists, held tightly to the principle of the excluded middle. This similarly creates a subtle flaw in his modal logic, so that his theory is forced to use comparatively difficult and cumbersome methods of proof and semantics. 

  Lukasiewicz apparently overlooked the possibility, which is implicit in his definitions and axioms, that he could define a strict or exact conditional. In practical terms, that&#039;s a huge oversight. I can hardly blame his logic for having a poor reputation, because without a strict conditional, it&#039;s crippled to the point of paraplegia. With it, any superlative sufficient to describe the difference looks like hyporbole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose I&#8217;m equally limited by the fact that I&#8217;ve never studied Peirce. Although I do note that the some of the ideas Peirce pursued as indicated in the SEP article are significantly simiilar bar operator is the same as Lukaseiwicz&#8217;s negation, and his Z operator is the same as Lukasiewicz&#8217;s &#8216;and&#8217; The most important weakness I see in Peirce&#8217;s 3 valued logic is that he didn&#8217;t have a good conditional for purposes of implication, inference, and deduction.</p>
<p>   Lukasiewicz used an unfamiliar prefix notation, one that is good for some technical reasons, but not easily read, written, or understood. He did trouble to invent a conditonal, which *almost* works, but doesn&#8217;t quite. </p>
<p>   I prefer the notation and some of the concepts of C. I Lewis, who attempted to make a comparison with his modal logic and that of Lukasiewicz, but wound up rejecting it, partly because of the inferior conditional, and partly because he, like the intuitionists, held tightly to the principle of the excluded middle. This similarly creates a subtle flaw in his modal logic, so that his theory is forced to use comparatively difficult and cumbersome methods of proof and semantics. </p>
<p>  Lukasiewicz apparently overlooked the possibility, which is implicit in his definitions and axioms, that he could define a strict or exact conditional. In practical terms, that&#8217;s a huge oversight. I can hardly blame his logic for having a poor reputation, because without a strict conditional, it&#8217;s crippled to the point of paraplegia. With it, any superlative sufficient to describe the difference looks like hyporbole.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/09/05/intuitionist-mathematics-and-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-1503</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 01:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=576#comment-1503</guid>
		<description>Note that as a Peircean of course I value three valued logic. (See the SEP for a brief discussion of &lt;a href=&quot;http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/peirce-logic/#TV&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Peirce and three valued logic&lt;/a&gt;) That was one of Peirce&#039;s main innovations.  And it is key for realistic semiotics as a general logic.  I just think one has to consider the nature of what one is reasoning about.  (Existents vs. Possibles being the obvious place this matters)

So I&#039;m definitely sympathetic to what you say limited primarily by not nearly as much knowledge of Lukasiewicz as I should.  (And honestly I haven&#039;t spent much significant time on formal logic since the 90&#039;s although I hope to remedy that one of these days)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note that as a Peircean of course I value three valued logic. (See the SEP for a brief discussion of <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/peirce-logic/#TV" rel="nofollow">Peirce and three valued logic</a>) That was one of Peirce&#8217;s main innovations.  And it is key for realistic semiotics as a general logic.  I just think one has to consider the nature of what one is reasoning about.  (Existents vs. Possibles being the obvious place this matters)</p>
<p>So I&#8217;m definitely sympathetic to what you say limited primarily by not nearly as much knowledge of Lukasiewicz as I should.  (And honestly I haven&#8217;t spent much significant time on formal logic since the 90&#8242;s although I hope to remedy that one of these days)</p>
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		<title>By: Confutus</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/09/05/intuitionist-mathematics-and-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-1502</link>
		<dc:creator>Confutus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 23:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=576#comment-1502</guid>
		<description>One set of rules for everything? I wouldn&#039;t go so far. I can think of several things the system I use doesn&#039;t cover.

   I don&#039;t blame you for being skeptical. Back when I was just trying to figure out why three valued logic was a mostly useless curiosity and not a *real* logic, I never dreamed that the results would be so far-reaching and extensive.  
   I would express the concepts you have given as
Peirce        (not P) = ~[]P (not necessarily P) 
Intuitionism, (not P) = ~P (not possible P) and from this draw some quick conclusiona about how these negations ought to behave. For instance, Double negation is not equivalent to a given proposition in either case, but there is an interesting symmetry.  

   Nevertheless, (to go all Mormon about logic) none but those who arouse some particle of interest sufficient to experiment with it will ever be enlightened by it. If no one is interested here and now, I&#039;ll go away and try someone else, somewhere else, some other time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One set of rules for everything? I wouldn&#8217;t go so far. I can think of several things the system I use doesn&#8217;t cover.</p>
<p>   I don&#8217;t blame you for being skeptical. Back when I was just trying to figure out why three valued logic was a mostly useless curiosity and not a *real* logic, I never dreamed that the results would be so far-reaching and extensive.<br />
   I would express the concepts you have given as<br />
Peirce        (not P) = ~[]P (not necessarily P)<br />
Intuitionism, (not P) = ~P (not possible P) and from this draw some quick conclusiona about how these negations ought to behave. For instance, Double negation is not equivalent to a given proposition in either case, but there is an interesting symmetry.  </p>
<p>   Nevertheless, (to go all Mormon about logic) none but those who arouse some particle of interest sufficient to experiment with it will ever be enlightened by it. If no one is interested here and now, I&#8217;ll go away and try someone else, somewhere else, some other time.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/09/05/intuitionist-mathematics-and-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-1501</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=576#comment-1501</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d second what Andrej said.  (And indicated something along those lines in the final sentence in my post)  I think what logic one uses depends really about what you are reasoning about.  How one reasons about possibilities and how one reasons about existents are just different.  I believe that was one of the big things Peirce brought forth to logic even if many of his discoveries weren&#039;t acknowledged at the time.  (And in one case &quot;rediscovered&quot; by Russell who probably should have known Peirce had discovered it earlier)

The idea that there is one set of rules for everything seems difficult to accept.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d second what Andrej said.  (And indicated something along those lines in the final sentence in my post)  I think what logic one uses depends really about what you are reasoning about.  How one reasons about possibilities and how one reasons about existents are just different.  I believe that was one of the big things Peirce brought forth to logic even if many of his discoveries weren&#8217;t acknowledged at the time.  (And in one case &#8220;rediscovered&#8221; by Russell who probably should have known Peirce had discovered it earlier)</p>
<p>The idea that there is one set of rules for everything seems difficult to accept.</p>
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		<title>By: Confutus</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/09/05/intuitionist-mathematics-and-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-1499</link>
		<dc:creator>Confutus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=576#comment-1499</guid>
		<description>I was wrong in claiming that Peirce&#039;s axiom is true. I rechecked my work, and it fails. 

   I expected that simpler and more general methods of logic that are capable of reproducing, reconciling, and explaining the results of various seemingly incompatible systems of logic would be of some interest to someone. I was naively overoptimistic. What I&#039;ve found instead is resounding indifference. 

   It seems to me that once you have a sound theory, the applications to such things as computation, geometry, and so forth all fall much more easily into place, although I&#039;ll admit that I haven&#039;t found those sufficiently interesting to compare the different approaches. I&#039;m primarily interested in the comparison of different systems of logic. 

   The problem I&#039;ve seen with intuitionism is that there is a subtle flaw in its foundations which, although it doesn&#039;t invalidate it, makes it much more difficult and cumbersome to apply and interpret than it needs to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was wrong in claiming that Peirce&#8217;s axiom is true. I rechecked my work, and it fails. </p>
<p>   I expected that simpler and more general methods of logic that are capable of reproducing, reconciling, and explaining the results of various seemingly incompatible systems of logic would be of some interest to someone. I was naively overoptimistic. What I&#8217;ve found instead is resounding indifference. </p>
<p>   It seems to me that once you have a sound theory, the applications to such things as computation, geometry, and so forth all fall much more easily into place, although I&#8217;ll admit that I haven&#8217;t found those sufficiently interesting to compare the different approaches. I&#8217;m primarily interested in the comparison of different systems of logic. </p>
<p>   The problem I&#8217;ve seen with intuitionism is that there is a subtle flaw in its foundations which, although it doesn&#8217;t invalidate it, makes it much more difficult and cumbersome to apply and interpret than it needs to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrej</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/09/05/intuitionist-mathematics-and-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-1498</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 09:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=576#comment-1498</guid>
		<description>Confutus, I do not know the details of your proofs, but from your comment it sounds like your method is that of validating certain laws of logic by interpeting them in a particular three-valued model, or interpreting them inside Lukasiewicz&#039;s logic. This is ok, but it is insufficient to show that the law of logic is also valid in other situations and under other interpretations. If everybody only cared about Lukasiewicz, then we would care about your proofs. But we do not. We are interested in many other aspects of logic, its connection with computation, geometry, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Confutus, I do not know the details of your proofs, but from your comment it sounds like your method is that of validating certain laws of logic by interpeting them in a particular three-valued model, or interpreting them inside Lukasiewicz&#8217;s logic. This is ok, but it is insufficient to show that the law of logic is also valid in other situations and under other interpretations. If everybody only cared about Lukasiewicz, then we would care about your proofs. But we do not. We are interested in many other aspects of logic, its connection with computation, geometry, etc.</p>
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