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	<title>Comments on: Physics, Ontology and the Burden of Proof</title>
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	<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/10/13/physics-ontology-and-the-burden-of-proof/</link>
	<description>Musings on Science, Religion and Philosophy</description>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/10/13/physics-ontology-and-the-burden-of-proof/comment-page-1/#comment-1643</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 04:30:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=725#comment-1643</guid>
		<description>Whoops.  Sorry.  That should have read momentum which is fundamental and not velocity.  But you get the idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops.  Sorry.  That should have read momentum which is fundamental and not velocity.  But you get the idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/10/13/physics-ontology-and-the-burden-of-proof/comment-page-1/#comment-1642</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=725#comment-1642</guid>
		<description>To add, to assume this is average velocity seems mistaken to me, but I don&#039;t have time to argue that in the context of classical physics and I can see folks taking either position.  Once you accept QM though things are very different since you&#039;re asking what an operator picks out from a given system after you calculate your eigenvalues and eigenvectors.  Uncertainty of course enters in but in a bit trickier way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add, to assume this is average velocity seems mistaken to me, but I don&#8217;t have time to argue that in the context of classical physics and I can see folks taking either position.  Once you accept QM though things are very different since you&#8217;re asking what an operator picks out from a given system after you calculate your eigenvalues and eigenvectors.  Uncertainty of course enters in but in a bit trickier way.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/10/13/physics-ontology-and-the-burden-of-proof/comment-page-1/#comment-1641</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Note that he&#039;s arguing in terms of Newtonian mechanics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note that he&#8217;s arguing in terms of Newtonian mechanics.</p>
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		<title>By: Ponder Stibbons</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/10/13/physics-ontology-and-the-burden-of-proof/comment-page-1/#comment-1640</link>
		<dc:creator>Ponder Stibbons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t think physics necessarily says that velocity is intrinsic to an instantaneous physical state. Jeremy Butterfield makes this point in &lt;a href=&quot;http://bjps.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/4/709&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Against Pointillisme About Mechanics&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;em&gt;the particle’s instantaneous velocity v at t codes a lot of information about what its velocity and location are at nearby times—but not ‘‘categorical information’’. The information is conditional or hypothetical information about average velocities (and consequently, locations). [...] for nearby times the collection of average velocities must be so ‘‘well-behaved’’ as to have a single limit, v, as the times get closer to t; or in spacetime terms, by saying that the nearby history of locations (the local segment of the worldline) must be smooth enough to have at t a tangent vector (a 4-velocity determined by v).&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think physics necessarily says that velocity is intrinsic to an instantaneous physical state. Jeremy Butterfield makes this point in <a href="http://bjps.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/4/709" rel="nofollow">Against Pointillisme About Mechanics</a>:</p>
<p><em>the particle’s instantaneous velocity v at t codes a lot of information about what its velocity and location are at nearby times—but not ‘‘categorical information’’. The information is conditional or hypothetical information about average velocities (and consequently, locations). [...] for nearby times the collection of average velocities must be so ‘‘well-behaved’’ as to have a single limit, v, as the times get closer to t; or in spacetime terms, by saying that the nearby history of locations (the local segment of the worldline) must be smooth enough to have at t a tangent vector (a 4-velocity determined by v).</em></p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/10/13/physics-ontology-and-the-burden-of-proof/comment-page-1/#comment-1639</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In quantum mechanics we can talk about definite values of velocity even if we can&#039;t talk about a particular time.  In general relativity we can also talk about velocity, albeit in a more complex fashion.

Also note that QM doesn&#039;t quantize space-time.  Indeed QM doesn&#039;t really have a concept of space-time per se.  Now various attempts at GUT do have quantized space time with varying degrees of failure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In quantum mechanics we can talk about definite values of velocity even if we can&#8217;t talk about a particular time.  In general relativity we can also talk about velocity, albeit in a more complex fashion.</p>
<p>Also note that QM doesn&#8217;t quantize space-time.  Indeed QM doesn&#8217;t really have a concept of space-time per se.  Now various attempts at GUT do have quantized space time with varying degrees of failure.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen, son of David</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/10/13/physics-ontology-and-the-burden-of-proof/comment-page-1/#comment-1638</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen, son of David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=725#comment-1638</guid>
		<description>Actually, from a physical rather than a philosophical point of view, there can be no such thing a &quot;instantaneous velocity&quot; because (1) spacetime is quantized, not infinitely divisible, and (2) the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that it is only possible to measure any particle&#039;s location and momentum within certain well-defined limits.

Therefore, it is only reasonable to speak of a particle&#039;s average velocity over some finite distance and time, and then only within a particular range of uncertainty.

On the philosophical subject of &quot;burden of proof&quot;, however, I believe that each party in an argument has a responsiblity to define, at the beginning of the discussion, just what *level* of certainty he or she is willing to accept as &quot;proof&quot;.  Only in mathematics is there absolute proof; everywhere else there is only evidence.

For example, Richard Dawkins asserts that he considers the existence of God to be so unlikely, that literally all the evidence in the Universe could not convince him that God exists-- that there would still be, in his mind, a simpler and more likely explanation.  Specifically, he argues that God is more unlikely, statistically speaking, than the entire Universe.

Quantum mechanics does not define the limits of our mechanical abilty to measure quantities, but the theoretical universal limits of our ability to measure the universe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, from a physical rather than a philosophical point of view, there can be no such thing a &#8220;instantaneous velocity&#8221; because (1) spacetime is quantized, not infinitely divisible, and (2) the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that it is only possible to measure any particle&#8217;s location and momentum within certain well-defined limits.</p>
<p>Therefore, it is only reasonable to speak of a particle&#8217;s average velocity over some finite distance and time, and then only within a particular range of uncertainty.</p>
<p>On the philosophical subject of &#8220;burden of proof&#8221;, however, I believe that each party in an argument has a responsiblity to define, at the beginning of the discussion, just what *level* of certainty he or she is willing to accept as &#8220;proof&#8221;.  Only in mathematics is there absolute proof; everywhere else there is only evidence.</p>
<p>For example, Richard Dawkins asserts that he considers the existence of God to be so unlikely, that literally all the evidence in the Universe could not convince him that God exists&#8211; that there would still be, in his mind, a simpler and more likely explanation.  Specifically, he argues that God is more unlikely, statistically speaking, than the entire Universe.</p>
<p>Quantum mechanics does not define the limits of our mechanical abilty to measure quantities, but the theoretical universal limits of our ability to measure the universe.</p>
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