Education in Utah and America

Posted on December 3, 2008
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The National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education has a new “report card” on education. Not enough Americans are going to college. Even in Utah, where you’d expect very high rates, the rates for whites is only 45% and the rate for Hispanics is an abysmal 16%. They scored Utah as an F for affordable education as well. Which seems surprising since colleges here seem pretty cheap compared to other states. For LDS at BYU the cost for a year of college is about $15,000 while non-Mormons pay $19,000. That’s including books, personal expenses and transportation. Tuition is just $3840 for a year which really isn’t much above what paid 20 years ago. (Has it really been that long?) It is pretty affordable IMO. BYU also makes tons of jobs available which is almost a subsidy for those not getting scholarships. (And there are plenty of scholarships as well)

At the University of Utah tuition is slightly higher at $4,472 with a full year being less than BYU. (Which I suspect has more to do with how they calculate expenses - SLC is probably more expensive to live in.)

Utah Valley University also here in the Provo area doesn’t do a full expense estimate but tuition is only $3752.

I didn’t look at the other state universities but I’d assume they are all between $3700 and $4400 per year as well. That just doesn’t seem high to me - let alone deserving of an F.

The big question is why so few still go to college. I suspect much of that 45% is related to gender issues. i.e. a perception that women don’t “need” to go to college - which is in this day and age false. Early marriage and pregnancy probably contributes. As to the hispanic figure I just don’t know. That’s scary low. I suspect cultural differences have a lot to do with that. But all immigration issues aside we need to do better there. There’s absolutely no excusable reason that should be so low.

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18 Responses to “Education in Utah and America”

The University of Utah costs more becuase it is a better education than all of the Provo area options.

Keep in mind that every state but California (which got a C) also flunked.

It is more a statement about the every rising costs of higher ed.

I guess my point is that if it’s gone up that little in 20 years it hardly seems like a problematic rising cost.

I think the UoU is obviously superior to BYU in terms of graduate education. (I can’t imagine anyone going to BYU for grad school for anything outside of law, accounting, or MBA) I’m not sure I’d agree for undergraduate education. Although that will obvious vary from department to department.

BTW, other state universities are much higher. The University of Maryland (my native state) charges a yearly tuition of over 8000 a year for instate undergrads. Of course, it is a better school that those in Utah.

I got my BA and MA at the UofU so my comment was more tribalism on my part.

In terms of philosophy (your’s being a philosophy blog and all), Utah is clearly better. I was in political science, so I say this with the highest objectivity.

Oh, I don’t mind tribalism. A bit of college spirit is a good thing. I actually transferred to BYU from Dalhousie and even though Dal is pretty respected in Canada I think BYU was pretty superior. It definitely has some negatives though and is not for everyone. But I think that often differences are highlighted a bit more than is fair. For physics while there were obviously better and tougher schools (MIT, Berkeley, Cal Tech, Yale, Harvard, etc.) I think I got a pretty fantastic education that was much more well rounded than I would have got at other schools. (So much so that I ended up working on a philosophy degree - something I had a pretty negative opinion of before transferring to BYU)

I don’t want to portray BYU as better than it is. I honestly think they ought make their classes more challenging. But that said the resources are pretty compelling and the professors far more approachable than at most colleges. (Judging by my friends at other colleges) Reputation of course is a whole other ball game and in some disciplines BYU has a very negative reputation. (i.e. much of the humanities) However in physics it had a pretty strong reputation, perhaps because so many professors also had connections with labs like Los Alamos.

I’ve no idea what kind of rep in physics it has now. Several of my classmates teach there now. I guess I ought ask them.

Regarding philosophy, I can’t really speak. Mark Wrathall has left BYU which I’m sure’s really hurt the department. Without offending my friends who teach there I think it pretty surprising so few classes are required in philosophy. Admittedly physics was in a world of its own in that regard but still philosophy requires only something like 10 classes in the major + 12 hours (typically 4 classes). Physics had twice that. And physics classes are hard. None of that is including your general education requirements obviously. And typically in philosophy you have to learn a foreign language like German, Greek, Latin or so forth. But then in physics it was strongly suggested you learn a language too. (Although it was hard to fit in since BYU doesn’t like it if you have too many credits without graduating and physics is getting up there)

There are still some good people in the philosophy department and I’ve known a lot of people who’ve gone on to solid things. But it just doesn’t appear (to me anyway) to be quite as serious as some other departments. Sadly.

It was also interesting to note that the cost and completion grades did not match: 49 states failed the cost grade but many states showed high completion grades. Do we conclude that the high cost does not prevent students from completing college? If the cost isn’t prohibitive, then is it a problem?

9 John Mansfield on December 4th, 2008 11:48 am

Clark, why do you think 45% college attendance is too low? What would be your ideal portion of the population that goes to college?

I’d think that getting it up around 60% would be important. The reason is that high paying jobs come much more likely if you have a college education. That’s not to say you will get one or even want one. Nor am I saying that the college one should go to should be a “great” college. I do think post-High School education is pretty important in our culture.

When you look at minorities I think that doubly true.

It’s one thing to say someone doesn’t want to go to college. (And not everyone will enjoy or be good in college) It’s an other when a majority of a population doesn’t. With the hispanic culture only have 16% in state then that is very troubling for the success of that culture in our society.

At the risk of sounding elitist, high-paying jobs are limited. The more people get higher education, the less valuable that higher education becomes and the more difficult it is to get a job that requires a higher education. Bachelor degrees come to be viewed as the rough equivalent of a high school education several dozen years ago.

Besides, not all who earn a degree are paid more than those with only a high school education. Furthermore, it isn’t required to have a formal education to make big money, it’s just a little harder.

And before we start worrying about the success of other cultures in our society, it would be good to examine whether or not that culture even values higher education the same way other cultures do. If minority cultures don’t perceive a need to be educated, they aren’t going to work to gain it. By instilling that need in them, you actually change their culture to match that of the majority. In such a case, the end is the same: their culture will not have much success in our society.

Silverrain, the number of jobs requiring higher education is increasing and the disparity of payment in also increasing. So I’m not sure I agree. Not all jobs for the educated are high paying either. Most researchers don’t exactly get paid well - especially considering the extra time and cost of graduate studies. Even lawyers who have a reputation as high paid typically aren’t as high paid as people think.

Now I fully agree that markets determine a lot of this. For instance one big reason researchers get paid little is because there are so many grad students looking for work in their field (this despite the constant refrain of not enough people studying those fields) So there’s some truth to what you say. It’s just that traditional jobs that once were reasonably or even high paying just aren’t there. Especially in manufacturing.

While I’ve not mentioned it I think there are also just good reasons to go to college based more on the classic ideal of a classical education. It helps communities socially independent of wages.

I paid $900 in 1989. What were you paying in 1988 that you think $1920 isn’t all that much higher and that it has gone up so little?
Doubling in 20 years doesn’t sound like really high inflation, but it isn’t really low either.

Oh Geeze. I seem to recall it was $1250 around that time frame for a single semester. I remember it because I was working at Los Alamos to pay for college and much of my savings from the summer went to tuition.

20 years was an estimate. I started in fall semester 89 and graduated in 94.

While a 80% or so increase isn’t something to be neglected back in 89 that was pretty cheap compared to other schools I looked at. Further it just wasn’t this huge burden. I was able to pay for all my college, spending money, and other expenses with part time work without any trouble. i.e. the cost of college wasn’t an impediment to going to college.

I (teaching in Indiana) have a good number of students who do not belong in college. I’d say 10% do not have the basic intellectual capacity for college to do them any good in terms of the actual teaching and learning. Another 10-20% lack the personal discipline. I can’t imagine what it’s like at lower-tier schools. They certainly should be getting some sort of training, but college isn’t it. Putting 60% of the population in college would, in principle, mean putting 10% of the people with IQ’s lower than 100 in college.

Note that I’m not saying people are ready for college. I am saying that there are structural concerns when the above statistics are true. Look at the stats for other nations and the US really lags.

I think our educational system is failing to prepare students for college.

I also think the IQ bit is a bit misleading. I’m wiling to concede that folks less than a standard deviation shouldn’t be in college. But those around the median score are fine. Also college, as I understand it, includes vocational training. So I’m certainly not saying everyone ought be an academic.

High paying jobs USED to come with a college education. With global competition, that isn’t necessarily true anymore.

It can be tougher getting a $50K/year job in computers than in plumbing, which is skilled, but doesn’t require a degree.
I think it is time we review our college structure, and see if it still works for a global 21st Century economy. Yes, there is room for philosophy degrees, but fewer jobs require it than trades. Perhaps colleges should consider reworking the degree structure, so as to offer skilled job training, like a vocational school, only with a degree attached.

Our nation is unable right now to compete with the world, due to many factors, but mostly because others will work for much less. Until our country figures out a new economy that requires college trained workers, more and more people will choose certifications, etc.

For example, why should I go through 4 years of a computer BS degree, when I can spend the same money and in only a year’s time have my Cisco or Microsoft Engineering certification and get paid the same as a college grad?

IMO, The time of “well rounded” education, in regards to employment, has ended for many people. There just is too much competition, which will only grow as we compete with other countries and trained/skilled immigrant workers.

Rameumpton it was never the case that getting a college degree guaranteed you a high paying job. Just ask tens of thousands of English majors around the country. (grin)

However a college degree is a huge correlation to getting a good paying job.

Many schools do offer vocational training with a degree. (UVU here does)

The problem in computers with just getting a certificate is that if things go belly up a college degree opens you up for a wider variety of jobs.

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