<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Coming Evangelical Collapse?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03/10/the-coming-evangelical-collapse/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03/10/the-coming-evangelical-collapse/</link>
	<description>Musings on Science, Religion and Philosophy</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:57:09 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Sheller</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03/10/the-coming-evangelical-collapse/comment-page-1/#comment-2667</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Sheller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 15:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=1834#comment-2667</guid>
		<description>Regarding &quot;Musings on Science, Religion and Philosophy&quot;, may I heartily reccommend that all who peruse this website obtain a copy of the book &quot;Thinking and Destiny&quot; by Harold W. Percival. If it is hard to find, contacting the publisher The Word Foundation by e-mail would allow you to order the book (as well as getting a bit of a taste regarding its content and approach).

It is my humble opinion that there is no more valid, powerful, presentation of the essential structure behind human life and activity. And, indeed, the essential origin of all religious and spiritual manifestations in humanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding &#8220;Musings on Science, Religion and Philosophy&#8221;, may I heartily reccommend that all who peruse this website obtain a copy of the book &#8220;Thinking and Destiny&#8221; by Harold W. Percival. If it is hard to find, contacting the publisher The Word Foundation by e-mail would allow you to order the book (as well as getting a bit of a taste regarding its content and approach).</p>
<p>It is my humble opinion that there is no more valid, powerful, presentation of the essential structure behind human life and activity. And, indeed, the essential origin of all religious and spiritual manifestations in humanity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03/10/the-coming-evangelical-collapse/comment-page-1/#comment-2483</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=1834#comment-2483</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that the LDS view is different though given our notion of a pre-mortal existence.  That is we are essentially an embodied spirit.  Thus what makes us different from animals is that spirit.  That changes the reception towards evolution in a fashion that is different from Evangelicals.

It&#039;s true that some, such as some of Pres. Packer&#039;s comments reflect a naive common sense view of reproduction.  (Obviously unaware of how much tiny changes can add up over time)  That said I don&#039;t think the moral issues make sense.  

I do agree though that a common view of anti-evolutionists is the more Aristotilean reading of &quot;kind&quot; when reading scripture.  Most don&#039;t realize that they are adding to it via Aristotle latent in the culture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that the LDS view is different though given our notion of a pre-mortal existence.  That is we are essentially an embodied spirit.  Thus what makes us different from animals is that spirit.  That changes the reception towards evolution in a fashion that is different from Evangelicals.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that some, such as some of Pres. Packer&#8217;s comments reflect a naive common sense view of reproduction.  (Obviously unaware of how much tiny changes can add up over time)  That said I don&#8217;t think the moral issues make sense.  </p>
<p>I do agree though that a common view of anti-evolutionists is the more Aristotilean reading of &#8220;kind&#8221; when reading scripture.  Most don&#8217;t realize that they are adding to it via Aristotle latent in the culture.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Philip Goldman</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03/10/the-coming-evangelical-collapse/comment-page-1/#comment-2482</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Goldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 03:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=1834#comment-2482</guid>
		<description>Doubtless young earth creationism plays a role in evangelical denial of evolutionary theory, but it runs much deeper than that. There&#039;s also a need for special creationism derived from a literal interpretation of the Bible not specifically wedded to a young earth. There are moral problems with the perceived implications of evolution, an association between evolution and atheism, an answer to one of their core arguments for justifying belief in God, etc. But beyond all this there is a web of anti-evolution arguments that permeate the culture and more or less taken for granted. Lots of evangelicals deny evolution, not simply because they feel the need to believe in a young earth per the Bible, but because they are absolutely convinced evolutionary theory is bogus due to popular &quot;common sense&quot; arguments against it that surround their lives. I think it is in this regard LDS appear to be relatively similar to evangelicals. 

I think Boyd K. Packer is representative of a fair amount of Mormons when he says things like:

“No lesson is more manifest in nature than that all living things do as the Lord commanded in the Creation. They reproduce “after their own kind.” (See Moses 2:12, 24.) They follow the pattern of their parentage. Everyone knows that; every four-year-old knows that! A bird will not become an animal nor a fish. A mammal will not beget reptiles, nor “do men gather … figs of thistles.” (Matt. 7:16.)

In the countless billions of opportunities in the reproduction of living things, one kind does not beget another. If a species ever does cross, the offspring cannot reproduce. The pattern for all life is the pattern of the parentage.

This is demonstrated in so many obvious ways, even an ordinary mind should understand it. Surely no one with reverence for God could believe that His children evolved from slime or from reptiles. (Although one can easily imagine that those who accept the theory of evolution don’t show much enthusiasm for genealogical research!) The theory of evolution, and it is a theory, will have an entirely different dimension when the workings of God in creation are fully revealed.&quot;

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20november%201984%20.htm/the%20pattern%20of%20our%20parentage.

Boyd K. Packer is especially fond of the idea that if evolution is true, then that means we are merely animals, and if we are merely animals, then we are not bound by moral precepts and are free, nay should, give into every urge and impulse that comes out way. Again, I think that is not an uncommon thing for an LDS to think. It also is indistinguishable from the views of typical fundamentalist protestants in the United States.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doubtless young earth creationism plays a role in evangelical denial of evolutionary theory, but it runs much deeper than that. There&#8217;s also a need for special creationism derived from a literal interpretation of the Bible not specifically wedded to a young earth. There are moral problems with the perceived implications of evolution, an association between evolution and atheism, an answer to one of their core arguments for justifying belief in God, etc. But beyond all this there is a web of anti-evolution arguments that permeate the culture and more or less taken for granted. Lots of evangelicals deny evolution, not simply because they feel the need to believe in a young earth per the Bible, but because they are absolutely convinced evolutionary theory is bogus due to popular &#8220;common sense&#8221; arguments against it that surround their lives. I think it is in this regard LDS appear to be relatively similar to evangelicals. </p>
<p>I think Boyd K. Packer is representative of a fair amount of Mormons when he says things like:</p>
<p>“No lesson is more manifest in nature than that all living things do as the Lord commanded in the Creation. They reproduce “after their own kind.” (See Moses 2:12, 24.) They follow the pattern of their parentage. Everyone knows that; every four-year-old knows that! A bird will not become an animal nor a fish. A mammal will not beget reptiles, nor “do men gather … figs of thistles.” (Matt. 7:16.)</p>
<p>In the countless billions of opportunities in the reproduction of living things, one kind does not beget another. If a species ever does cross, the offspring cannot reproduce. The pattern for all life is the pattern of the parentage.</p>
<p>This is demonstrated in so many obvious ways, even an ordinary mind should understand it. Surely no one with reverence for God could believe that His children evolved from slime or from reptiles. (Although one can easily imagine that those who accept the theory of evolution don’t show much enthusiasm for genealogical research!) The theory of evolution, and it is a theory, will have an entirely different dimension when the workings of God in creation are fully revealed.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20november%201984%20.htm/the%20pattern%20of%20our%20parentage" rel="nofollow">http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20november%201984%20.htm/the%20pattern%20of%20our%20parentage</a>.</p>
<p>Boyd K. Packer is especially fond of the idea that if evolution is true, then that means we are merely animals, and if we are merely animals, then we are not bound by moral precepts and are free, nay should, give into every urge and impulse that comes out way. Again, I think that is not an uncommon thing for an LDS to think. It also is indistinguishable from the views of typical fundamentalist protestants in the United States.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03/10/the-coming-evangelical-collapse/comment-page-1/#comment-2473</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=1834#comment-2473</guid>
		<description>I think though that &lt;i&gt;what&lt;/i&gt; Mormons believe is quite different.  Most Evangelicals I know who oppose evolution oppose it because of young earth creationism.  Most Mormons who I know oppose it just think that the human body was significant.  A few do the &quot;no death before the fall&quot; which is pseudo young earth creationism but not as many as you&#039;d expect.

Michael, I agree, but I think the big difference is that as a heavily prosylatizing Church we have a lot of influx who don&#039;t stay that biases things a bit.  Some of those eventually get taken off the roles.  But by and large they don&#039;t.  So you have a lot of people who maybe only came to Church for two weeks counted as Mormon.  That&#039;s why I find the self-identification surveys so interesting since they exclude such people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think though that <i>what</i> Mormons believe is quite different.  Most Evangelicals I know who oppose evolution oppose it because of young earth creationism.  Most Mormons who I know oppose it just think that the human body was significant.  A few do the &#8220;no death before the fall&#8221; which is pseudo young earth creationism but not as many as you&#8217;d expect.</p>
<p>Michael, I agree, but I think the big difference is that as a heavily prosylatizing Church we have a lot of influx who don&#8217;t stay that biases things a bit.  Some of those eventually get taken off the roles.  But by and large they don&#8217;t.  So you have a lot of people who maybe only came to Church for two weeks counted as Mormon.  That&#8217;s why I find the self-identification surveys so interesting since they exclude such people.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Philip Goldman</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03/10/the-coming-evangelical-collapse/comment-page-1/#comment-2470</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Goldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 03:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=1834#comment-2470</guid>
		<description>I think LDS culture is quite close to conservative evangelicals on the issue of evolution. I haven&#039;t seen hard numbers as of late, but I&#039;m guessing the belief rates in evolution are close. I don&#039;t know how vested LDS are in the anti-evolution/creationist political movement that is one of the core issues of evangelicals going back decades, but they seem to have similar opinions on the topic in any case. 

I also don&#039;t think it is quite correct to say the Church&#039;s position is one of neutrality. It&#039;s closer to tolerance of those who believe in evolution with a definite recommendation against it. To be frank, that&#039;s awful close to your average nondenominational Bible Church one might find Joe Evangelical at.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think LDS culture is quite close to conservative evangelicals on the issue of evolution. I haven&#8217;t seen hard numbers as of late, but I&#8217;m guessing the belief rates in evolution are close. I don&#8217;t know how vested LDS are in the anti-evolution/creationist political movement that is one of the core issues of evangelicals going back decades, but they seem to have similar opinions on the topic in any case. </p>
<p>I also don&#8217;t think it is quite correct to say the Church&#8217;s position is one of neutrality. It&#8217;s closer to tolerance of those who believe in evolution with a definite recommendation against it. To be frank, that&#8217;s awful close to your average nondenominational Bible Church one might find Joe Evangelical at.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Philip Goldman</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03/10/the-coming-evangelical-collapse/comment-page-1/#comment-2469</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Goldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 03:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=1834#comment-2469</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s easy to forget, but evangelicalism, especially in the south, was heavily associated with the segregationist movement. Their loss on this social issue didn&#039;t decline their numbers. Quite the contrary. Other issues filled the vacuum this one left. Indeed, it&#039;s around the time that civil rights has solidified itself in the culture that evangelicals began paying more attention to homosexual issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s easy to forget, but evangelicalism, especially in the south, was heavily associated with the segregationist movement. Their loss on this social issue didn&#8217;t decline their numbers. Quite the contrary. Other issues filled the vacuum this one left. Indeed, it&#8217;s around the time that civil rights has solidified itself in the culture that evangelicals began paying more attention to homosexual issues.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03/10/the-coming-evangelical-collapse/comment-page-1/#comment-2467</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=1834#comment-2467</guid>
		<description>Clark,

Most Christian churches are pretty liberal as well in counting &quot;members on the books.&quot;  That is one reason why the attendance to membership ratio of the Southern Baptists is so low.  On the converse side my previous church had a membership committee who had the responsibility of reviewing and updating the membership role each year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark,</p>
<p>Most Christian churches are pretty liberal as well in counting &#8220;members on the books.&#8221;  That is one reason why the attendance to membership ratio of the Southern Baptists is so low.  On the converse side my previous church had a membership committee who had the responsibility of reviewing and updating the membership role each year.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03/10/the-coming-evangelical-collapse/comment-page-1/#comment-2465</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/?p=1834#comment-2465</guid>
		<description>Eclectic, I think the point I was asking about is the question of how to calculate &quot;members on the books.&quot;  Mormons tend to be a bit overly liberal here (IMO).  You&#039;re on the book unless you explicitly ask to be taken off.  That&#039;s why I asked about the self-identification figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eclectic, I think the point I was asking about is the question of how to calculate &#8220;members on the books.&#8221;  Mormons tend to be a bit overly liberal here (IMO).  You&#8217;re on the book unless you explicitly ask to be taken off.  That&#8217;s why I asked about the self-identification figure.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

